Me angsting about lists - feel free to ignore my navel-gazing

[snowgall]

So as many of you may know, I've previously posted lists of "Best Drarry Fics of the Year" for 2007-2014. In fact, those were some of the very first posts I ever made to this blog. It's more-or-less why I started this blog, as I was all in a tizzy about properly dating fanfics, and I felt that organizing rec lists by year of publication was one way to make some use of the data I had been gathering up to that point.

I still feel that way, and I still like making rec lists, but this year it will be SO HARD. When I posted all of those other lists, I was really new to fandom. I hardly knew anybody, especially not authors! Making the lists was an objective exercise for mostly my own enjoyment. But now I know so many lovely people in the HP fandom. Which means creating and posting my list for 2015 makes me feel incredibly anxious and concerned about which fics might get left off.

Because oh my god, some fics will get left off! By my count, I've recced 93 Drarry fics this year, between my LJ blog and hd_storyroom. And the number of fics I included in each of my previous "Best of the Year" lists was always less than 30! Part of the reason is that I simply read more fics in 2015 than I have in any previous years, which means I know of so many more good ones to rec. So my 2015 list will be longer than my previous ones, but I don't want it to be ridiculous. I think I've settled on ~36 fics I want to have on the list, and that's about as low as I can go.

So this is a long-winded way of saying that I'll be posting my list later tonight or tomorrow, and there will be lots of good fics that aren't included, and I already feel awful about that. In the end the list is just an arbitrary thing based on one person's no doubt flawed opinion. It says nothing about the quality of any fics not on it.

Comments

[dicta-contrion.livejournal.com]

I think we may just disagree on some of this (and may weirdly be having a week of that) and of course you can call your list whatever you want. I'm not replying to try to change your mind; part of what I think I'm seeing is that we have different approaches to community norms and self-promotion, and that is what it is and I don't think anyone is going to be convinced in a livejournal comment.

But to the idea of best-of lists not making bigger, I think context matters. In other contexts there are a lot of best-of lists, and the proliferation of many lists with the same title is a huge clue to readers that none of those lists can be absolutely authoritative or could even possibly be objective because their claims are in direct competition and are sometimes contradictory. So if I'm going out to dinner in NYC and Time Out, Zagat's, the Village Voice, and Michelin all have best-of lists it's obvious that no one has cornered the market on being able to declare something the best (though they'll all carry more weight than yelp reviews, which are a collection of favorites and don't make any claim to authority beyond being a collection of opinions). However, if I want to go out to dinner in a small city and there are some yelp reviews plus one local paper that does an an annual best-of list, that paper will carry more weight, especially for out-of-towners or newbies, than it would carry in another market, even if the list is some random reporter's personal favorites that basically amount to yelp reviews, because it's the only venue making a claim to be able to tell the reader what the best is (and, implicitly, the only venue claiming to have made any sort of comprehensive evaluation).

So, similarly, if everyone made best-of lists there would be a clear cue that no best-of list was authoritative or remotely objective, both because there would be multiple conflicting lists and because when you have many lists people distinguish between them by name instead of there being one list that is The List (so it's "This is Time Out's best Italian restaurant" instead of "This is New York City's best Italian restaurant.")

The norm, at least in this fandom as far as I've seen, is to operate like yelp reviews - "I give this fic four stars, here's what I liked and didn't like." So having one list that comes along and claims to be The Best - and it's not "Snowgall's Best Drarry Fics of 20xx," it's "The Best Drarry Fics of 20xx" - feels to me like it claims to offer something bigger and better, more comprehensive and definitive, than what other reccers are offering and upsets kind of a balance, where other reccers are saying "this is something I've enjoyed and I think you'll enjoy it too," not "I have surveyed the field and these are the best." To me, there's something about that that feels...not quite unfair, because I suppose other people could also go against norms, but...uneven. To other reccers who abide by established community norms, and to the authors who aren't recced, such that it becomes this thing of "well, you may have been dicta or capitu or themalfoymanner or grace's favorite, but you weren't The Best."

This may, again, all boil down to having different views on community norms. I think they're important and try to be aware by them and, especially in an informal community like fandom, think it's worth being attentive to them and, while I'm absolutely comfortable with and in favor of self-promotion, I'm not personally comfortable with the idea of intentionally breaking with community norms as a tool of self-promotion. Or maybe it's a matter of wording, because I do think it's a different thing to say "these are the 36 Fics I most want to hug" vs "these are the 36 best Fics in this fandom." And I understand that that's my opinion, even if one I care enough about to want to put out there, and one that felt germane if your concern was about upsetting authors who are excluded and some, though of course not all, authors say that they wouldn't be bothered by being left off the hugging list but that The Best list is a bit of a different thing. But then I also would've said that calling it "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" was at least 95% tongue-in-cheek, so maybe our interpretive boats are just passing in the night.

[snowgall]

So I'm going to resort to an analogy.

Let's say Jane is participating in a community bakesale at the local mall, for which everyone makes cookies. They do this with some regularity, and there are other tables around the mall where other communities are also selling baked goods. Jane is excited about her community and wants to help attract as many customers as possible, so she spends a lot of time trying to bake great-tasting cookies and wrap them prettily in sparkly green cellophane, as she has done for several sales in the past.

The day before the sale, she meets with some of her community friends and worries aloud that perhaps she hasn't baked enough cookies. Their response is, "Well I'm sure you would feel better about it if you didn't wrap them in sparkly green cellophane." To which Jane is like, "Huh. That's not what I was talking about." And the response is, "Well, you must see how vulgar it is. No one else is wrapping their cookies in sparkly green cellophane. It's like you're trying to make the rest of us look bad."

Jane is a bit stunned by this, as she of course never intended anything of the sort, and points out that the mall is a busy place, and she just wanted to catch the eye of passers by so that they might stop at the community table and be more likely to buy cookies. After all, selling more cookies benefits the whole community, and not just Jane. "Well I don't think I agree with your logic," is the response. "I sincerely doubt that anyone would be attracted by sparkly green cellophane. I certainly would not" But Jane is the sort of person who *would* be attracted to sparkly green cellophane, which she explains.

And then she is told, "It just seems like you want people to think your cookies are better than everyone else's, since yours are the only ones wrapped that way." Jane is feeling pretty depressed and battered at this point, but attempts to point out that everyone knows that you can't judge how cookies taste by how they are wrapped and that other people could wrap their cookies in sparkly green cellophane too if they liked. No dice, that's not the community norm, and could you just get with the program, Jane?

Analogy over.

I know I sound defensive, but I can't help but feel a bit attacked. I honestly have been feeling very hurt by all of this. I waited a couple of days to reply, because I was trying to get ahold of my emotions. I probably failed. And I'm sure to the extent that I somehow hurt others' feelings that me feeling hurt is simply my just desserts. But it does take away all the joy I had had out of posting these recs, and all over something that feels so very small potatoes.

[birdsofshore]

Hi snowgall. I hope it's OK to butt in here. Obviously I can't reply for dicta. I'm just replying for myself.

I'm sorry to hear that you've been feeling depressed and hurt by all of this. I have been feeling the same way, to the extent that I haven't commented on your 'best of' post because I really wasn't sure what to say. For the record, I am sincerely glad that you enjoyed my fics that much. Thank you for being such an appreciative reader.

However, I've been feeling hurt and disappointed by your response to the feedback you got on this post. I feel that you've dismissed people's concerns without seriously considering making any changes to what you'd decided to do. It makes me feel that hits and publicity are more important to you than the feelings of the creators who make up your list - and those who didn't feature. I am very surprised by this, and quite taken aback.

I don't think your analogy works at all. First of all, fandom is not like a bake sale to raise money for charity. There is no third party who benefits from what we do here. I know you're suggesting that if you get more publicity for your recs list, 'fandom' will benefit, but the thing is, there is no actual 'fandom' which exists to benefit from your cookie sale. There are only the creators and readers, individual people who make up a community. And those people are telling you that they're not benefiting from this, that in fact they'feel uncomfortable with it.

I wrote out a long analogy and then deleted it about a cookie SWAP - not a sale. Because fandom is not a cookie sale. We're not selling anything. I have mixed feelings about fandom promotion. For a long time I didn't put my fics on AO3 because I didn't want that publicity outside of LJ. I was forced to get an AO3 account by fest culture, and on the whole it's been a good thing, but it does mean I get some stupid comments sometimes that I would rather not deal with. Left to myself I might have stayed on LJ, among our community which is more respectful and personal. You see, I don't write to get hits. Hits are nice, I'm not pretending otherwise. But I'd rather have one thoughtful comment from a friend, than 1000 hits from strangers. I don't promote myself on tumblr. I don't post on ff.net. Publicity and hits are not what I am here for. It's the community, the respect and friendship of other people here on LJ which rewards me.

The analogy about the sparkly paper is so far off the mark that i don't know what to say. Nobody is objecting because your title is VULGAR. I find that insulting. We're saying that this title hurts the feelings of people who are left off the list, and to be frank, makes some of those who are on it feel uncomfortable. I feel uneasy about it myself, because I know I featured on your lists before, and I was happy about that, and didn't notice the problem with the title. It boosted my ego I guess, and i didn't think about it any further than that. I hold my hands up and say, I didn't realise it would hurt people's feelings. But as soon as someone pointed this out, I got it. It seems obvious that calling your personal list of favourites "The Best" is problematic for lots of reasons. I read the other comments on here and thought, "oh YEAH."

I said earlier that I had no problem with what you included on your list of favourites - and that's true. It's entirely up to you. But I do have issue with the fact that you called your favourites "The Best." It's not that it's sparkly, or vulgar, You could dress your journal up in pink and green flashing lights and that would be your prerogative. It's the fact that this makes the list appear definitive and objective when it's not.

[birdsofshore]

and my comment was so long I had to split it! Here's the rest:

I know other people have explained their views better than me, and I know you didn't get what they are saying, and that you're probably not going to get what I'm saying either. but I needed to say it. My intention is not to hurt you, snowgall. I don't want you to feel attacked and battered. I'm trying to state my opinions respectfully here. But my view is that the title of your list means far more than sparkly wrapping, and I find it bewildering why you seem to dismiss the feelings of people in this community who I thought you would count as friends. Including some of the creators who make up your list. Because you'd rather get hits for your recs. I just... don't know what to say about that.

I'm terribly busy this week, so if I don't respond to any reply that is probably why. I'm also in a hurry so I may have phrased things badly. I know you may not want to reply to this, and that's OK as well. I just needed to say it.

[lq-traintracks.livejournal.com]

I've actually been trying to write a letter that says a lot of these things myself, Snowgall. I had given up trying to write it because I couldn't seem to phrase it right so that a) you would see my (and others') point without b) hurting your feelings. I figured I would let it sit for a while until I figured it out. But then I saw the sparkly green wrapping analogy, and I do find that both really off the mark and off-putting. Jane isn't saying her cookies are "the best" just by presenting them nicely. It's that exact phrase, "the best", that's at issue here. And really everything Birds said applies to me as well. I never really noticed the title until the people in this post pointed it out, and I've felt guilty for not having seen it or the problem it creates before. Now that I've seen it, my understanding of the situation has been altered, and my feelings have changed.

What I find most bewildering and upsetting is that you've decided to defend your stance rather than consider the change your flist has requested. It does feel as though you care more about random strangers and their clicks and hits than the members of this community and the very people you're reccing. I know that can't possibly be true, but that's what it seems like by your actions and your refusal to bend on this or even see what others are saying.

I hate confrontation. I don't want to hurt you. I'm beyond thrilled that you like my stories, and I'm honored to be considered among your favorites. I just wish I could make you understand why it's uncomfortable to be on either side: to be called "the best" or to be left off a list with that title.

Thank you for listening.

[dicta-contrion.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to say that I'm rushing out the door and don't have more than a minute to respond. But I do want to (beyond agreeing with birds, which I do, up to and including being sorry to hear that you've felt so upset, and having been quite upset by this myself) and for once, I think I can get at at least the crux of it concisely.

When you talk about taste-testing cookies....cookies don't have emotions or internal lives, they're wholly unaware of how they stack up to other cookies, whether they get wrapped in cellophane or thrown in the trash. I'm quite flabbergasted and, to be entirely honest, a bit insulted by the metaphor. If you're Jane in this metaphor, do you realize that reduces all of us authors - flesh and blood human people who put passion and energy into our words, who invest in them often quite deeply - to inanimate objects for you to curate? Do you realize that we - the authors on your list - are people and not cookies? Do you see where that makes a difference?